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loreta 43 ( +1 | -1 )
Around Dutch defence a) Dutch defence (1. d4 f5) isn't very popular in top rated ames, is it? How do you think - why?
b) Anyway, there're Dutch players - and in Gameknot as well. It is interesting, which variation they play? Dutch defence players, - your word! Which schema does White ussually plays against you?
c) And there still are some 1. d4 players - what do you feel when you meet Dutch defense? Which variation do you prefer?
ionadowman 238 ( +1 | -1 )
I played ... ... a Dutch Defence against a Dutch buddy opponent. He reckoned he would play a New Zealand Attack against it. I didn't come out of it looking very shiny... ronald46 vs ionadowman - a draw, though I tried very hard not to make it a draw!

I've played a few Dutch Defences on GK, but it's the sort of opening one chooses if feeling confident. In general I find it too committal - too uncompromising in its approach.

But against the English Opening, I do like the "Dutch Defence System" that goes 1.c4 e5 2.... d6 3... f4 - an aggressive set up that leads to quite double-edged and exciting games. On GK cormel vs ionadowman (2005?) and diemjay vs ionadowman (2008) are a couple of games with this line in which Black did well; but in pinkoy vs ionadowman (2005) Black crashed and burned rather ignominiously. I tried the King's fianchetto in that game, an experiment I am in no rush to repeat!

Facing the Dutch recently, I fianchettoed on the K-side, moved Qc2 then developed the King's knight to h3 to support the bishop's move to f4. Once the situation stabilised in the centre, I went for a minority attack on the Q-side that eventually led to the win of a pawn, then finally a breakthrough on that flank.
How usual this procedure is, I have no idea. This game has been annotated recently (ionadowman vs jstevens1).

Cheers,
Ion
loreta 20 ( +1 | -1 )
Uncompromising? Hi Iona,
What do you mean by "uncompromising"? :)
-------
My experience: in last couple years I've experienced heavily on variations with ... Bb4 (often with Q-side fianchetto) - in quick games (blitz for 5-10 minutes).
ionadowman 117 ( +1 | -1 )
"Uncompromising"... ... unyielding, stubborn, but in the case of the Dutch, a certain rigidity - a lack of flexibility.

I have tried the ...Bb4+ line (the same chosen by Alekhine in his famous game against Bogoljubov, London 1922. The game tag1153 vs ionadowman (2007) went:
1.d4 f5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Bb4+ 5.Nbd2 ...
At this point I seemed to have run out of "book". White's 5th looks very strong. 5...h6 6.a3 Be7 7.Bxf6 ...
Not very surprising: Black's bishop gets to move again...
7...Bxf6 8.e3 d6 9.Bd3 Nc6 10.0-0 b6
White looks to have a fine game at this point -
11.b4 g5 12.b5 Ne7 13.Nb3 g4 14.Nfd2 e5
15.d5!? h5!?
No, I didn't play 15...e4!? After 16.Bc2 Bxa1 17.Qxa1 I didn't fancy White's hold on the long diagonal.
16.e4 f4 17.f3 Rg8 18.Be2 Bd7 19.fxg4?!
Black has made good progress, but this ought to have waited. The exchange weakens White's K-side.
19...hxg4 20.Bxg4?? Bxg4 ...
and Black won quickly.

I think I ought simply to have developed the B at e7 instead of b4 in the line played. But I gather that in some lines, ...Bb4 is fine.
Cheers,
Ion
loreta 17 ( +1 | -1 )
Annotated game Iona's mentioned:
gameknot.com
loreta 8 ( +1 | -1 )
Sorry Correct link is:
gameknot.com/annotation.pl/an-expert-lesson-in-development.pl?gm=17250
wulebgr 13 ( +1 | -1 )
I like playing against the Dutch and have for years, but even more after my most recent OTB game: a draw against an FM (500 Elo above me) who played the Dutch.
loreta 4 ( +1 | -1 )
But Why? wulebgr, but why do you like playing vs Dutch?
wulebgr 53 ( +1 | -1 )
Is it not obvious ... that good results make an opening pleasant. When a FIDE Master plays the Dutch as his exclusive weapon, and a B player can neutralize it as I did this past weekend, it is something worth playing against. As a low C player, I won or drew most games against B players playing the Dutch. As a B player, I've won or drawn several games against A players who favor the Dutch. And now I've developed a repertoire that gives me good chances against the strongest player in my town--A FIDE Master--when he plays his pet opening.
ionadowman 3 ( +1 | -1 )
... but you're not saying... ... how you do it?
Classified. Quite understandable...
:-)
Ion
loreta 47 ( +1 | -1 )
Cyrano One of top GK players playing Dutch is cyrano.
Here is couple of last finished his games, as examples: game and game
lighttotheright 43 ( +1 | -1 )
The Dutch is risky. Yet, I'd do it in a heartbeat over the board. My 'hat is off' to Cyrano for playing it consistently on GK. That takes a lot of guts to play when there is little time pressure to force White's move.

I've played it on GK with mixed results. I've played against it with better results. I would have to feel very confident to play it against anyone over 2200 on GK. I don't see that happening anytime soon.
ionadowman 158 ( +1 | -1 )
Unable to find ... ... the board number for ronald46 (1648) vs ionadowman (2013), so here's the move score:
1.d4 f5 2. c4 e6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 Be7?! 5.Nf3 0-0
6.0-0 d5 7.c5!? ...
Psychologically, an interesting choice. I felt that it couldn't be good, yet wasn't able to solve (to my satisfaction) the problems it set.
7...c6
Possibly already too routine a response.
8.Bf4 Nbd7 9.Nd2 Ne4 10.Nxe4 fxe4 11.Ne5 g5
12.Nxd7 Qxd7!? 13.Be5 b6 14.b4 Rf5 15.Bh3 Rxe5?!
16.dxe5 bxc5 17.f3! exf3 18.Rxf3 Ba6 19.bxc5 Bxc5+
20.Kh1 ...
Black has just one pawn for the exchange, but a much prettier pawn structure. Enough compensation for a roughly even game - no more.
20...Rf8 21.Qf1 Re8 22.Qc1! (damn) 22...Bxe2
23.Qxg5+ Qg7 24.Qxg7+ Kxg7 25.Rf4 Be3 26.Rf6 Bd3
27.Rd1 Be4+ 28.Bg2 Bf5 29.h4 Bb6 30.Rc1! Bd4 (=)
Black is about to win back the exchange, but it's no use. White has enough to hold the draw.
31.Rxc6 Bxe5 32.Rxf5 exf5 33.Bxd5 Bxg3 34.h5 Re2
A last attempt to round up an extra pawn... Black could have offered a draw here, but elected to play it out a bit further.
35.h6+! ...
Of course.
35...Kf8 (forced)
36.Rf6+ Ke8 37.Re6+! With the rooks off, and the sole remaining pieces bishops of opposite coloured squares, Black has no way to realise the extra pawn.
37...Rxe6 38.Bxe6 Kf8 39.Bxf5 Kg8 40.Kg2 Bf4
41.Be6+ Kh8 42.Kf3 Bxh6 43.Kg4 Kg7 44.Kh5 Bd2
45.Bb3 Kf6 46.Bc2 h6 Draw. There's no way Black can make any progress.

True, I didn't need to sac the exchange, but the game was looking rather too evenly balanced with few opportunities for either side. So I was prepared to take a risk. Fact is, my opponent played very well, subsequently, pulling out some annoyingly good moves.

cheers,
Ion
loreta 16 ( +1 | -1 )
Minitournament There is a thematic MT in progress (of Leningrad Dutch):
gameknot.com
ionadowman 180 ( +1 | -1 )
I've never fancied... ... the Leningrad Dutch. The game I mentioned in an earlier posting pinkoy vs ionadowman was a similar sort of line against my opponent's English Opening. It did not turn out well"
White pinkoy Black: ionadowman
1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 d6 3.g3 f5 ...
Now, it's possible the relevance of this line to the thread begun by loreta will be questioned. I reckon the two have a considerable affinity.
4.Bg2 Nf6 5.d3 g6?!
Psychologically a poor choice. I had never tried this before, and am in no hurry to try it again. But the move is playable, for them as likes this sort of thing.
6.d4(!) e4 7.f3! exf3 8.exf3 Bg7 9.Qe2+ Kf7!?
10.Qf2 Re8+ 11.Nge2 Nc6 12.Bg5 h6!? 13.Bxf6 Qxf6
14.0-0-0 Kg1
Too slow, I suspect
15.h4 Qf7 16.f4 Nb4 17.a3 Na6 18.Bd5+ Be6!?
19.Bxb7 Bxc4 20.Bxa8 Rxa8
I hoped with this exchange sac to get some attack on the Q-side...
21.Qf3 Re8
Was ...Rb8 preferable?
22.h5 c5 23.hxg6 Qxg6 24.Rd2 cxd4 25.Nxd4 Nc5
26.Kb1 Qf7 27.Rg1 d5 28.g4
It was somewhere hereabouts that realisation began to dawn. Black is in deep trouble.
28... e4 29.Nxe4 dxe4 30.Qe3 Bd3+ 31.Ka1 fxg4
32.Rxg4 Kh7 33.f5 Qh5 34.Rdg2 Be5 35.Nc6! Bf6
I could have resigned at this point, but I thought it might be nice to play it to the finish:
36.Qxa7+ Kh8 37.Ne7! Rxe7 38.Rg8+ Kh2 39.Qxe7+ Bxe7
40.R2g7#
b

With colours reversed my game against the same opponent was a battle royal that ended peacefully after 48 moves...

Cheers,
Ion
loreta 21 ( +1 | -1 )
Statistics Of course, statistics is "fried branch", but it gives common view as well. I checked GK DB for wins using Dutch: 44% (White) vs 39% (Black). At Chessgames: 42% vs 28%.
So Dutch is even "better" statistically for Black than 1. ... d5 (GK: 46% vs 38% and CG: 39% vs 22%)
wulebgr 14 ( +1 | -1 )
No secret My game score is online.
www.spokanechessclub.org
wulebgr 14 ( +1 | -1 )
My earlier system is available at www.angelfire.com
loreta 53 ( +1 | -1 )
A long ago I got a private mesage from one known GK member but as he did not make note here, I don't show his name. Anyway, his though is interesting - and I'm sharing it here:
---
"I used to play the Staunton Gambit but have switched to 2. Nc3. The primary reason for the switch was the possibility of playing 1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4!? when 3. ... fe: is a blunder and 3. ... de: is a variation of the BDG that is not thought highly of for Black. Another interesting idea that can throw the Dutch player is the gambit idea of 2. h3!? with the idea of 2. ... Nf6 3. g4 fg: 4. hg: Ng4: 5.Qd3. White gets quite a bit of play for the pawn, enough for Kortchnoi to give it a try."
loreta 7 ( +1 | -1 )
Just more I want to point that to all above it is worth to consider 2. Qd3 as well...